I’ve written quite a lot about Victor Hafichuk’s Path of Truth Ministries, either a cult or the only genuine Christian Ministry out there, depending on your degree of commitment to his teaching. My take is that PoT is indeed a Christian Ministry and NOT a cult in the typical use of the word, but I believe I have shown very well the deep flaws in the leadership’s excessive judgmentalism and that I have confirmed the premier complaint from those who have left (or ‘escaped’ if you are in that frame of mind) – hypocrisy. While many have shared their experiences with me over the time I have been researching these guys, one thing that has been missing to date is a mature take from an ex-insider. Here it is. I believe that it shows the most accurate picture of the dynamics at work for those who have engaged and then left. Fortunately, in keeping with the writer’s maturity, he has allowed me to republish his words. I think the world should be grateful for this generosity. It’s long and quite thorough. Enjoy.
Path of Truth is primarily an online Christian Ministry run by a Ukrainian ex-Catholic Victor Hafichuk, and until quite recently a loyal side-kick Paul Cohen. My blogging has commented on and revealed (exposed, to some) dysfunctional living within their operations in Canada plus failures in logic combined with hypocrisy. Paul Cohen’s recent fall from grace has to be viewed as spectacular to commentators and observers – detractors and a large many who have been on the end of Paul’s verbal venom around the globe for decades will no doubt be rejoicing in his fall.
What comes of PoT now that the awesomely effective tag-team duo of their leadership will be newsworthy I am sure. This post however deals with the consequences of engaging with PoT, and in particular one individual who had/has the guts to share his experiences with me confidentially, and then, when I asked him for permission to share it, the willingness to share his pain with the rest of the world.
I get a steady stream of people contacting me and discussing their experiences with these guys. Much of the communications from insiders have been along the same lines, “Victor and Paul are ‘it’. You are wrong and going to hell!” This mimics Victor’s and Paul’s direct curse of me when they failed to undo my logic on the topics I chose to discuss with them. I guess it is much easier to play the man than the ball! I confessed to loving the sound of my own voice, which was the only thing that they “got” over me. They didn’t confess to anything and still to this day are letting me wallow in my sin, although Victor did deign to come down to my level once and try to defend himself from something somebody else said a while back. Why it matters what a “lost sinner” like me thinks I’m sure I’ll never know but that’s all in the past now with Paul Cohen’s demotion and [inevitable] eventual departure, if it hasn’t happened already.
Here then is a series of emails with a man who has been through the hoops with them. I share my opinions on the entire thing at the end. The bold is Jack’s (not his real name) words. I delayed publication to let the publication of the Corruption in Samoa book run through. I should note also that the use of private emails in a public forum is a PoT norm. I chose to seek permission first:
I’ve read your articles about TPOT. I don’t know if you’ve seen the recent happenings w/ Paul updated under his testimony this month. Seems like a lot going on and being uncovered . . .
I was very involved w/ TPOT for almost three years starting in spring 2013 and then things got insanely complex and I’ve not been back.
That’s sad to hear your troubles. Unfortunately sometimes we have to move on to do the right thing and this can cause grief and pain for many. Did you read my most recent post about leaving – just in the last few days?
I’m a young man, 36 battling very serious health issues. I basically got poisoned by holistic and homeopathic treatments that have caused all sorts of problems for my body and brain.
Ouch! Sorry to hear that mate – I am not really good with medical things.
After not improving I was just basically ridiculed by TPOT for not “believing” and for having a “spiritual” problem and not a physical problem.
This is hard isn’t it? You know the theory and you know that there are spiritual matters that can influence our health, yet for some reason the Lord doesn’t respond like a machine when we want Him to eh? Some good people die young and some crooks keep on keeping on in supposed good health. One thing that hurts me is PoT’s ridicule and emotional manipulation/violence. They really can be quite cruel at times!
Things got really hypocritical.
Yes, I think that hypocrisy is THE biggest complaint from leavers.
It got way too complex, they didn’t even know what was going on when I tried to explain things to them and when they don’t have an answer, they just turn it all on you and gang up…
Yes, that group-think is evil. They tried it on me. The saints who agreed with the leaders’ diagnosis on me are no longer there yet their circular reasoning still stands as “God’s Judgment” – crazy in my books!
Anyway just wanted to give you a heads up I’ve learned a lot from your writings and how to spot things, deal w/ things and have some self worth, etc..
I’m so glad that you have told me this Jack. I beaver away and it is really hard to remain focussed and motivated when you never get feedback like this – means a lot to me to hear it. Cheers
There’s SO SO SO much I could say but I try to see the good in things and not pay so much attention to TPOT at this point but I’ll never truly shake it because there were a lot of good things I learned w/ them.
This is one of the really hard things for detractors to understand, and it is that God can and does use imperfect people for His purposes. It is rare to find people who are FULLY evil, despite what PoT leaders claim, and to call them a cult and write them off is sad, for me. I REALLY would like you to scribble down a few things when you can do this Jack. Please understand that I want to understand PoT as much as possible and that getting real stories (good and bad) helps me a lot in my investigative work. Whatever you can say I’d appreciate.
Somehow things just fell apart. –Bye Dennis, wish you well
Thanks Jack – for bothering to write – good on ya!
Jack replied with a long email and mention of depression & suicidal thoughts which I deal with in a minute. I felt it necessary though to give him a quick heads-up and hopefully reason for a bit of hope. I didn’t know how serious his situation was and I didn’t want to risk him charging off to do something silly while waiting for me to reply!
This is just a quick one in reply. I’ll spend a bit more time later going through your words in greater detail but I want to snatch this opportunity to encourage you. I’ve read every word – quickly I must admit but I get things pretty quickly I must then add! There are a couple of times in your email that you refer to death, or depression or suicide or loss of hope and so on and such like. I can understand this perfectly BUT I do not believe that this is wholesome, real or of God. You say that you are a battler and have done it so far so I would ask that you have hope that in a little while I will be able to engage with you where I think you will appreciate my response and grow stronger as a result. I’m not strong with medical things but I am with some of the other things you talk about – like the mind, picking up on the human dynamics around PoT and their leaders. The bottom line Jack is that at 36, and with the experiences you recount here, you are in a VERY strong position to grasp reality. Putting the medical things to one side, you would be THE most switched on; most self-aware; most mature ex-PoTruther that I’ve encountered, and I mean this. I’m not just saying it to be false hope or anything like that. When I get a chance to go through in greater detail you will see as I dissect your words that you are in a very strong position to move forward. You have a lovely balance between picking the eyes out of their hypocrisy and giving them credit for what they deserve. You have struggled and been hurt yet can see your own responsibility in dealing with your matters. Aside from the medical things which I really struggle with, you really are onto it! Talk to you in a day or so, and if I miss getting back to you inside 48 hours, flick me another reminder and update. My guess is that with such a brain-dump you will be starting to feel a lot better already. Thanks for writing – yes it was quite a long one but that’s cool. I don’t need to print it! Talk again soon.
My more in-depth reply:
On 31 May 2017 at 15:54, Jack <[redacted]@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Dennis, thanks for contacting me..
Sweet. With a big email like this the honour is mine. I appreciate your response
Yes, I’ve read your updated posting on TPOT as well as all your other postings on them in depth along with the comments. I’ve learned quite a bit and you obviously have a high, tuned in intellect to see and deal with things. Me, not so much these days but I’m bright in ways.
Jesus taught us to honour the Truth and to love. The only place I have ever seen truth and love in perfect balance is on the cross. The interesting things I have observed is that you can have 40% truth and 60% love or you can have 30% love and 70% truth but when you get to 50/50 you actually end up with 100%+100%. That’s by the by! I think that you are right about me – it’s not humble to say this but false humility is sin. I do have an analytical mind and I use it. I deliberately try to apply cold hard logic onto fact with the aim of getting the result of heart-warming truth. The secret is humility – like Christ. When we humble ourselves, being ready to say in a heartbeat, “Oops sorry I was wrong!” we find that increasingly we aren’t. The more research I do the more confident I can become. I remember a famous US golfer’s words when he struck a beauty of a shot and someone in the audience said, “Whew! That was a lucky shot!” He turned to the bystander and said, “The more I practice, the luckier I become!” The more that people like you and me think, ask questions, look for truth and do the research, the luckier (less wrong) we become. Don’t put yourself down too much Jack. You’ve got a good brain and you use it. Sure it may have a few fuzzy areas/times with the health things at the moment but it’s a good one that still works pretty well as far as I can see. I’d put my vote in your capacity to work things out before many others I can tell you, AND that includes Paul Cohen & the likes!
Yes, lately from what I’ve read from TPOT (I still check the site from time to time) it looks like Paul has been hardly demoted due to various things and “falling short of his responsibilities.” A gentleman who left his wife and 5 kids has taken Pauls spot for now. (you should just read the update to his testimony when you have time, it’s not long) I guess things aren’t always the way they seem, especially online.
I hurt when families are rent asunder. Yes I know who that is and the circumstances surrounding his family departure. It rips me up even to this day when I think about it. I cannot talk about this because of confidentiality things but this is not the work of Christ, splitting families like this. I do of course understand the PoT teaching and from their perspective saving people from themselves or from the evil world “out there” brings validity but there is another way. Your comment that “things aren’t always the way they seem, especially online” is totally dead right. It is the whole thrust of my teaching and analysis isn’t it? Hypocrisy. Now PoT are not alone in this – even you and I suffer from self-delusions of some sort because the heart is forever deceitful but this is the biggest error in PoT conduct. This is how the temptation goes:
1. We see error
2. We stand against it
3. We claim righteousness
4. We slip into dogmatism
5. We err
6. We see error . . .
This cycle is where PoT are, as indeed are most, if not all churches and religious leaders. The only source of perfection is Christ – the person of Christ through the power of the Holy Spirit. Victor is right in this. His problem is that knowing he is right, he errs just like the fifth point above. I know Christ so therefore you don’t is the trap. PoT fails miserably in this test, as I know you know.
Maybe he’s not up to Victors standards but I’d like to see who is?
This, Jack, is a key issue and perceptive of you. Let’s go just a little further with this thought. If Paul has failed that leaves only Victor. We know that his longterm disciples have all gone or are newbies. We know that his wife and son get special treatment and are thus precluded from acceptance so who does that leave? Victor alone? Yet while we have Victor claiming that he knows Christ and has been called to preach/judge or whatever (which BTW I don’t deny to some extent) when you listen to his own words, and his own testimony, he’s a right royal mess – a social clux going back to childhood; self-doubt and open self condemnation for decades and a social misfit with little redeeming features – unless you see him as God’s chosen prophet to the world. You see the hypocrisy and the cognitive dissonance I know. He can’t. This is a form of psychiatric challenges – the detail which I would hesitate to try to identify. He is a hard man on not only others but himself. This is the flavour that comes through all of PoT and which was amplified by Paul.
I don’t have anything against Paul, we started developing a good friendship before things fell apart and then everything just got weird.
Paul is essentially in a bind because he has worshiped Victor because Victor was obedient to the Lord and helped Paul come to Christ. Paul’s mistake was to put Victor between himself and Christ. Victor is human. Paul sees him as something greater than he really is. Victor doesn’t have the social maturity to deny Paul that crux and it’s not in Victor’s interest to cast Paul out for his own good. Now that his hand is forced, Paul has the chance to grow and mature in Christ. I hope he does. Codependency however is tough to deal with. Paul also will have real difficulties listening to me, even though I think he should. I think you have done the right thing moving on when things got weird. I would listen to the Holy Spirit’s leading; back yourself and do it, whatever it is. I’m pleased for you that you appear to have done exactly that.
Although, I do confess some anger and bitterness to some at TPOT including Victor, Paul and Martin, I can’t say I was mistreated and they were all genuinely trying to help me and wanting good things for me, I believe. Things just got too weird and bizarre and they go about things their way.
Be careful with the word “confess”. It has baggage, especially around PoT. Your recognition of anger and bitterness should be (I believe) a private thing between you and the Lord. Anger can be righteous you know? Many times it is anger that drives us to greater and better things. Same thing with God’s anger. It is from that anger that big things can come. PoT are unique, for sure. Now, with Paul sidelined and Victor back to family and a few others it will mean less and less to the world. Go with the flow and assume that they will no longer be a force.
When I first came to TPOT I found their website in early 2013 and read as much as I could for a few months. It all made sense and hit home to me.
Me too. It was like, “Yeah! Finally me too! Someone who has come to the same conclusion as me [on a particular subject] and who has the guts to say it!” Some things I still don’t “buy” but much I do. One thing about Victor, while he can be quite schizophrenic in his teaching he can also be quite lucid and coherent in his teaching. I like that about him – and his confidence.
I was really going through some things and really needed the Lord and guidance. I reached out to them and kind of poured my heart out in an email.
(At that time there were likely 12-15 testimonials on the site of people with them who had received the Spirit and were walking with the Lord and all these good things etc.. They all have basically left and are nowhere to be found. Ironically the only testimonial left on TPOT is Victors)
Yes and this will be the case now until the end I am sure. It was Paul who was the powerhouse and now with him gone and my work gaining more traction PoT are past their heyday, I am sure. The “nowhere to be found” thing is very telling isn’t it?
Mostly anyone I talked with about TPOT would think I’m crazy and that they were a cult right off the bat some people were very wary.
Now this subject needs a lot of care. My father thinks I am crazy to even read the bible. That’s valid but not important enough to influence me. It has the same effect as saying that the wallpaper is orange. And so? Many who do some basic research come up with the cult thing because they are different; opinionated; confrontational; adherents believe with a passion and they are active to support their position and beliefs. None of that matters when considering their cultishness. Wary-ness is also good in this sort of situation too but . . .
They are not a cult, I don’t think so.
Well they are in the sense that Victor says that they are – dedicated and different, yes. But we are in agreement I know that you can leave; you don’t HAVE to give; there is no overt cultish conduct so they are not the sterotypical cult, for sure. This is one of the things that really concerns me – the way that others hurl abuse and accusations at them without doing basic due diligence and without acknowledging their differences from the Jones-style cults. The other thing is that there are different things that make a cult – theology and human manipulation. Many a detractor will use theology as the basis for establishing cult status. That’s a dangerous road to travel! All that said however, there ARE some cult-like tendencies within PoT around the social manipulation and condemnation on departure but these are tendencies not hard-and-fast facts.
They teach many, many good things like you’ve stated. Actually most of what I’ve learned in life of any worth I learned at TPOT. They might have some cognitive dissonance issues (but so do I) or issues applying logic and sound wisdom like you write about and they could definitely be more positive and encouraging with building people up in the Lord.
Right. You cover quite a bit here Jack. Great that you’ve learned a lot from them – great. Great that you’ve learned how to apply logic onto fact too and sure they could DEFINITELY learn to build people up more, but that is very unlikely unless Victor changes or goes!
Not everyone is Victor, not everyone’s life is going to play out the way Victors has in his Theo-Auto story. A lot of people associated with TPOT think just because things went a certain way for Victor then that’s how it will work for them.
Astute! I concur – totally!
I think most people are associated with TPOT because they are lonely, drifters, don’t have community, can’t think for themselves, have really low self esteem, self worth and confidence (all of these describe me in ways but much worse now) and in the beginning TPOT will build you up just to sweep out the rug from underneath you at a later time if you’re not “perfect” according to them and all of those negative things pile up again.
Well this may be so but it seems to me that the reason that most get involved is because they want to know the truth – or think that they do anyway! Let’s go through some of these things:
Lonely/Community – What a gift PoT give to those who are lonely eh? The commaderie within the PoT community is great, for sure and this is an area that I support Victor 100%. Let’s leave Paul, the hypocrisy and problems out for just a moment – this gives great meaning to PoT eh?
Drifters – This is new to me but may as you say be the case
Thinking – this eats me up because you are right. It is THE biggie of them all – if only people would engage brain eh?
Self-esteem – I too suffer from a legacy of a childhood with a father who never said “Well done” or “I’m proud of you” I’m 58 and he’s got 30 years on me. I’ll never hear it from him, and the consequences are HUGE aren’t they?
The impression I get Jack is that Victor as leader has difficulties with human relationships and that his mixed-up-ness comes in part from low self-esteem, therefore it is only at an intellectual level that his love-bombing works. Deep down the harshness and critical sides are all too ready to pop out. I don’t think that they deliberately set out to undermine the people they draw in and build up.
I would give you a little warning here, personally. The idea that negatives build up is very real. While it is difficult when they do, it is important to clear the logs from the dam to avoid a log-jam that will cause a breach. Fending off the negativity and bad experiences day by day (which you seem to be doing quite well) is a PROCESS not an EVENT for those of us who suffer with low self-esteem. It”s the way we think, not what we do. When you realise this and can see it, you will be impervious to the long-term damage that things like negative PoT engagement can cause. Imagine that you learn how to identify darts the instant that they are on their way. You know that it takes 2 seconds in the air before they hit. A reaction time of 3 seconds causes pain. Two second reaction time is stress and sometimes pain, but a one second reaction time means you are free from pain, unless you’re distracted. This is how to look at negative things. Just pluck the darts out and make sure that you can see the darts for what they are, preferably before they hurt, then slowly you will find the pile of negatives is getting smaller.
Remember also that dealing with grief is cyclic not lineal.
Most of all- people are with TPOT because they think that being associated with Victor (and Paul) that they will escape God’s wrath and judgment to come to this world. They think because they’re with Victor, God will save them.
Oh yes! This is a huge mistake isn’t it? Likewise with Catholics in the “true church” and happy-clappies who are “spirit-filled” and Lutherans who have the gospel of grace and Mormons who have the Book of whatever and the Sallies who do the good things for the poor and the JW’s and Moonies and Hare Krisnas who all do the hard yards in the street!
The way I look at all of this is that the Lord knows and understands. He gives us the capacity and power to deal with the effects of evil and imperfect teaching through the Holy Spirit. When you and I listen and obey, we come closer to Him and THAT is what matters most to Him – not whether we live for another 1 minute or another decade – not whether we are perfectly healthy or have a perfect life. Thus the way you talk to me and the way I respond here, is central to His purpose. He uses the PoT errors and failings FOR His purpose, not as His original perfect intent, but as He is true to His word and nature.
There were many times people fellow shipping at TPOT were found out to be not who they claimed or came across to be.
Yes this is THE biggest issue that detractors and leavers talk about – hypocrisy. In fact I don’t think that Victor is a hypocrite in the slightest. He strikes me as more confused and comes across as a hypocrite. Paul, well he clearly is and always has been and the others just take the hypocrisy by default because it is the way they do things.
Let me explain how I see Victor’s hypocrisy outworking and hopefully you can see what I see. Victor says many times that he is just the same as the rest of us – a mere mortal. He says though that he hears from the Lord. Both of these are true. He says that he is a leader because he has been called to lead. Again, I don’t deny him this calling. BUT the assumption (pride-based) that he has it right (which he often is) is that therefore others have it wrong. It makes sense to him, so he’s actually on solid ground . . . except that he goes too far and when he’s out of sync with reality around him, there is the hypocrisy that winds people up and causes disillusionment. Think of his huge efforts to ping false teachers. It’s a driver for him. Constant battling and desire to get more, more, more. Why? It’s clearly an ego-driven thing which causes us to see hypocrisy when he claims to be humble!
I hope you can see and understand what I am saying here – basically I agree with you. You will have many more insights than me on this I am sure. I just pick out what I know from the outside and my investigations thus far.
It starts getting weird when you start thinking for yourself and ask specific questions. It’s like this whole wizard of oz ordeal 🙁 Actually the first time I talked with Paul on the phone I thought this can’t be the same guy from TPOT. Online he’s so confident, bold, sure of things.. Over the phone he’s almost the exact opposite.
Well there are two things here – the weirdness and Paul. I can understand the situation Paul is in. He’s made a commitment to Victor and gains his self-esteem and identity from his soul-tie with Victor. Sure he’s on his own now more with the recent chastisement which is great and a good opportunity for him but he is a man of the written word – like me. We excel in writing, not so much speaking, so that’s not so much a failing as a tendency or a leaning or preference in one way. The point you make from this though is valid and it is the hypocrisy and difference between what is said and what ‘is’.
The first bit though is a repeating phrase you use – weirdness. When you see things clearer, the weirdness will disolve. Understand that I have a couple of decades on you; I’ve never been inside PoT and that I specialise in this kind of analysis. You’ve got medical/brain issues; you’ve been inside for 3 years and are starting to work it all out. Seeing it all weird I can understand. My take is that you are a LONG way towards working it all out and getting it out of your system – a LONG WAY! If these email exchanges do what I think they will, you should be well on the way to recovery as a direct result – almost a miracle. They should be like someone coming along and saying, “Hey Jack. Looks like there’s a log jam on your dam. Stand back. I’ve got a stick of dynamite!” and Boom they are all down the river and the water is flowing well now. I can’t talk about health or medical things but if the dynamite blows the logjam out then you may find that the medical things have a much better chance to get dealt with.
Anyway to back up a bit, Victor and Paul responded to me in such a positive way I was amazed brought to tears, they were warm and welcoming.
Yes this is a form of love-bombing. It’s natural, not necessarily wrong or evil or malicious. Think of the effort I am putting in here writing to you. You are not going to get this commitment from me forever of course. It’s only natural.
They assured me that despite my trials, I was in the right place and that the Lord is in control.
And just because they dropped the ball doesn’t mean to say they were wrong either eh? You know that deep down I am sure.
I continued on with them as much as I could for the next two and a half years. Reading correspondences daily, reading at the website, fellow-shipping, attending the weekly online meetings. Reading and answering every single inquiry.
Perhaps a little over-the-top in retrospect but it was the way you/they did things. Just learn from it and move on Jack.
Victor brought up to me that I should consider sending offerings, which I did- several thousands of dollars without even much of an income (money I could use now to support myself)
The amount or circumstances of giving I cannot comment on really. Money is an issue with PoT but it’s not a biggie as far as I can see.
I also was supporting their business buying thousands of dollars of goods and health devices (which haven’t helped much at all for my condition)
Victor has a conflict of interest when he mixes ministry and business. This doesn’t mean that he’s doing something wrong by selling things that have helped him or that he believes in but it means that people (rightly or wrongly) can accuse him of profiting on the back of His faith. This is typical of Victor’s life where he has to learn things the hard way and the things he has yet to learn stick out like a sore thumb. People with wisdom separate the two. Simple. If Victor believes in Grander Water or Chi or homeopathics and he doesn’t want the conflict of interest then he will sell things at cost and not profit from them. He doesn’t because it is business. I too am a businessman so it is not an issue that we profit from our activities. The problem comes when we mix the two. That you look back with regret is simply proof of the lack of wisdom Victor demonstrates. Plus your gullibility at the time and the questionable nature of the claims they make.
But all in all things were going well considering everything. Everything about me was changing in ways especially my attitude, outlook, actions etc.. I really believed for the first time in my life that the Lord was working with me and He had me on the right path.
Don’t lose this in all the pain and weirdness Jack. This is all perfectly valid.
I was spending most of any of the time I had free either reading, engaging, thinking about TPOT stuff and what was the right way to live by the Lord and what He wanted me to do in life.
Great! And so too do all other adherents when they are in the system. This is the reinforcing thing of support to those in need from a community of like-minded people. In fact it also works the same with a community of non-Christians too but Victor won’t agree with that one! I know this because in my early twenties I experienced this as a young Christian. It was an amazing experience from which I escaped but the community thing can be huge at time in our lives when we need it.
I was having these nagging health issues that were holding me back from doing certain things like traveling and I REALLY wanted to make the trip up to see them. (I was getting a sea sick nausea feeling all the time and other stuff)
Well in retrospect perhaps this was for the better?
So I went to see a Holistic/Homeopathic Dr. (which TPOT advise, they’re big on natural health/homeopathy etc..) I went to the supposedly best one in [redacted]. And this was after I tried all kinds of things people at TPOT suggested getting no relief or making things worse.
Again, I cannot comment as I have trouble dealing with medical things.
(2015) Again spent thousands of dollars and this is where it fell apart for me- long story short I basically got poisoned with heavy metals and I believe calcification in my brain to an extent and body through their “therapies” at this holistic clinic.
Ouch! Sorry to hear that.
(As a footnote, I’ve definitely overdone things in my life with “health supplements” putting anything in my body that would be healthy. I’ve had depression and anxiety since 2002 but could fight through anything in life- So I thought this place and recommendations would help me feel much better or no worse at the very least)
(DEC 2015 – now) It has been the worst thing I’ve ever known. The suffering has been indescribable, so severe.
Sorry that I cannot empathise or help with the medical things but I can tell you that I observe someone who has the raw material to be able to manage his way out of whatever it is. You clearly have a strong mind thus differentiating facts from feelings will improve I am sure as you walk forwards with brain engaged.
I went through a horrible psychosis like state and didn’t sleep at all for a long period and still have severe sleeping issues. If I had just avoided that place and their recommended therapies and supplements, my world would be vastly, vastly different.
I wish that people [generally and specifically PoT] would just confess that they don’t know instead of guessing things. It’s one of my pet hates when people ascribe things to God and they really are just guessing.
When it happened I reached out to TPOT for help. I didn’t know what was going on, they didn’t know either. They prayed for me and said I was having Spiritual issues not physical and that I would get better.
Well this spiritual issue thing can be real but you gotta pretty darned sure to nail it or you just get it all wrong – PoT failed on this eh?
They suggested cranial sacral therapy that I tried at $100 a pop twice with a local practitioner. It did absolutely nothing. I got worse, that’s when TPOT starting telling me I didn’t “believe” and if I wanted healed then I should made the trip up (all contradicting what they teach) and that’s when things just got too weird and too complex and I just dropped out.
Honestly my brain and body couldn’t function. I’ve made a slight recovery since but still feel like I won’t be around for long, it is the most brutal thing ever. No one really understands! I found a support group and many, many people have had the same reactions to homeopathy especially people with something underlying, I couldn’t believe it. I can’t help but think this will likely cost me my life at some point. I’m so angry, mad, bitter- you name it!
Swap you places Jack! I’m ready to go if you’re not. Look, for me I can’t say I fully understand. I can see the despair you have and the anger makes perfect sense to me. I can see that the treatments they said are not working and probably never will for you. Sure. Brutality sucks though. All I can do here is say that my prayer is that the Lord will hold you and draw you close as you work these things through. I know that He cares; that He knows and loves. It appears to me that you’re pretty much onto it. I have to leave it there!
What amazes me is when this happened I kind of got shunned by everyone at TPOT. I treated everyone there well and the best I could always, honestly from the bottom of my heart. A time or two some people from (affiliated with) TPOT came through town and I went out of my way to meet them and be generous with them. (this was before all hell broke loose)
Not one person has checked in on me! No call, email, text- Nothing!
Jack, you ARE on your own. You come into this world on your own and you meet your Maker on your own. Yes we have a mother for a while and others around us from time to time but you need to realise (and I know you do more than many) that it is up to you how you live your life. More and more I have come to the place that I simply want to hear those words, “Well done good and faithful servant”. Nothing else matters. Expecting PoT people to give you something when you need it is unrealistic. They are generally the sort of people who take (in the guise of righteousness). See what Paul has been doing? It’s only pride. Even when we are married we still need to realise that not every wife will stay or be loyal and children grow up and away. Friends turn on you and and and . . .
Victor checked in once a long while ago by email and just asked what was going on, I wrote him back telling him what was happening fairly in depth and he didn’t even respond!
Yup! That’s Victor. There are lots of things he doesn’t understand, starting with people!
Paul asked me in a conversation when this all started if I was still working? I said no I’m not able- his tune totally changed. That was basically the last I heard from him. I know it’s not their job to chase people and I certainly don’t want that but it’s just common courtesy is it not?? To check in on someone? Especially someone crushed and broken.
You are assuming too much Jack You may do this. It’s a bonus if others do.
And really what could they do- nothing. It wasn’t their fault. My hopes and expectations just got high or out of whack. I could tell Paul just didn’t want to deal with me.
He was also dealing with Sarah’s departure not so long after that which was also weird. She went from a Spirit filled believer dishing out advice to everyone and everything to being filled with demons because she wanted to leave?
She wanted to leave probably BECAUSE she was a spirit-filled believer. Sarah is someone that I feel for. She really copped it and they used her. This comes down to Victor’s callousness with people. He just doesn’t understand. In Sarah’s case he should have TOLD her to go back to her folks off and on. Then she would have stayed. When you hold people emotionally (and this is a subtle thing not overt typical cultishness) you create the tension ready to pop out further down the track. Victor doesn’t understand this, and probably never will. It’s a bit to do with his pride, but it’s mainly his upbringing and uniqueness. Paul just took on Victor’s ways and mimicked him with interest.
I have acquaintances around here where I live that don’t even believe in God that check in on me and care!! I’m not trying to be a charity case but we’re all human. I would say feel free to walk a mile in my shoes.
I feel like I’ve committed the worst crime in the history of the world! I know it’s no so but that’s what it feels like.
Identify the facts. Identify the feelings. Back yourself. Easy to say I know but it’s very simple. You’re doing fine in my book!
I’ve confessed my sin at any point, What is my sin? What is it so I can make it right? I asked them all these questions, I’ve asked the Lord! At the time they said I must have been hiding sin and honestly there was none that I was deliberately doing or I could think of. Then they said it wasn’t sin, it was just a Job (the man in the bible) like experience.
Well I think they were right and wrong both times. Clearly there is truth in the last diagnosis. You have gone through a testing time like Job did. I too have been there and am only just comign out of it. But they were (IMHO) right and wrong the first half. Sin is a “state of being” before it is an action, word or thought. Understand that we are sinners even before we DO something sinful. This is the context in which we sin. In that sense our sin goes before us when we create it. It’s like a fish in water being accused of being wet. Of COURSE we sin and suffer as a result. What they seem to have gotten wrong and that you appear to have believed for a period was that you had specific sins unconfessed. This is a vicious accusation and one which God endorsed Job at the end over. Remember that false humility is a sin too!
And then they said if I’m not going to forsake my family (which I was planning on anyway before all this started- to get out on my own) then the Lord couldn’t do anything with me.
BS. Utter nonsense.
Paul said “His hands are tied”
Who going through psychosis can forsake their family??? My family, even though they were shocked and crushed and had no clue what was happening with me even still to this day, they don’t understand but they are helping me and supporting me. Without them I’d be on the streets or dead for sure. I was fortunate they weren’t forsaking me.
Absolutely. They may not understand the faith thing, or your deeper issues but look at Victor & Paul’s inability to understand you! Nah! When the time is right you can move up; move away; distance yourself carefully but PoT are vicious like this and it causes so so much pain – all unnecessary. Yes, there are SOME people at SOME times who need a clean break from soulties or codependency or various forms of abuse. Not all though.
Sorry for the rant Dennis. It’s been hell. I’ve thought about just ending it all. Sorry if this email is all over the place but my brain is not all there.
I beg to differ. I think your brain is all there but your heart has been messed up somewhat. Read back over this email again and my replies. In context, it’s a pretty jolly good vent that has your head pretty well screwed on isn’t it? My take is 90% brain = great but 80% heart got messed up.
I know I’m responsible for me. I know I’m the perpetrator. I’m accountable, I’m not blaming anyone but myself.
Good. Yes. Good. Ummm be careful with the last one. Job didn’t end up blaming himself very much. He understood and accepted it pretty well. You will/should too methinks.
Have I had my fears, worries, doubts, questions etc.. ?? Sure, just like anyone else.
At 36 with what you’ve reported here to me I think you’ve got a pretty solid future Jack. Sure, some things to work through but it looks pretty promising from what I see.
I’ve looked at Victor and Paul like gods it seems.
Yes, you have a little. Understand though that they set themselves up to be like that and they are VERY convincing because they believe it. I think you have been fooled quite a bit and that as you mature and think about it you will grow smarter. It’s not a crime to trust too much. We’ve just got to learn to trust a little more guardedly and to put all our trust into the one who can be trusted then into others only to a degree that they are worthy of that trust. It will take you time but the next time you fall into trusting someone too much it will be MUCH easier to extricate yourself and you will bounce back MUCH quicker.
I know they are just men but even if unintentional they go to work on your mind and it’s not easy to shake. I knew that going in, I was just dead set on things going well. I really thought I was in the right place. I just don’t know what to say, words can’t describe how things panned out for me. Unfortunately things just fell apart for me, it’s really tough to deal with.
Yes but it is simple. Not especially easy, simple. You gotta toughen up and grow up and all this all at once but you will!
I think overall with TPOT the good outweighs the bad for someone desperately searching. They teach good things.
I’m not going to argue with you about this Jack because I know why you said this. What I would like to do though is to take this subject sideways rather than making it into a statement of whether they are good or bad for someone. This is a little subtle here but PoT fail in this area so I want to spend a little moment on it.
The starting point here is that we are all sinners. The belief that “we can be perfect” vs the truth that “we are perfected in Christ” is central to Victor’s errors in teaching. When you believe that you can be perfect (because you have heard Him and preach what He says which is Victor’s meme) then you MUST logically put others down as less than perfect – i.e. misguided, evil or wrong. This is the basis of Victor’s “False Teacher” ego trips where he is highly motivated to prove others wrong. When you accept (theologically) that you can do good while still being a sinner (more accurately that the Lord can use us) then things change from a black and white situation where we have the responsibility to judge others into a black and white situation where we actually don’t know where that grey line is exactly.
Now that’s the theory. In practice it is the way that we respond to PoT teaching and conduct where the good outweighs the bad. It’s not actually PoT that is good or bad – they just are. It’s how you, Jack, and the next person responds and deals with it (either in faith in a constructive way, or in a negative hate-filled manner for example) that determines PoT’s conduct to be good or bad.
Victor would dispute this because he has his limited take on PoT. He’s the centre of it and PoT simply reflects who he is and his limited outlook on the world. Yes, it’s valid – for him and his cronies – but there is more to life (and Life) than PoT and all who have left realise this when the sky doesn’t fall after they have left PoT. Does this make sense? For YOU, PoT did more good than harm – for various reasons. For some others though this was not the case – and some of them come to me, usually with a beef and a bad attitude too!
People do get robotic and weird though. If people decide to fellowship at TPOT I would suggest working on having some self worth and identity.
Definitely! Absolutely. If you take all of Jesus’ teaching and interactions you can see the incredible change in confidence and increase of faith, hope and usually charity towards mankind after their engagement. This should be the same thing with you and me. You should be lifted after reading these words, feeling and thinking at new levels of faith, like you have just been swept over with a breeze of pure Ozone! The instant that stops or reverses – get out, fast.
Staying active even away from the website and forum etc.. Using your brain, thinking, searching things out. Just not jumping and doing something just because Victor and Paul told you so or they say you’re going to perish if you don’t do this or that.
Words of wisdom that you’ve obviously learned the hard way eh? As I put it, the application of cold hard logic onto fact produces heart-warming truth. When we switch off brain and delegate the thinking to others we deny the cross of Christ to ourselves. Paul wrote about that foolishness to the Galatians and called them bewitched!
There’s a lot of fear based manipulation going on there at the same time. People get caught in that and don’t want to leave because God will “run them down” in some way.
Yes, and this is the area that touches the cult-like behaviour. Again I steer away from actually calling PoT a cult but the emotional pressure that comes on adherents when they try to leave is definitely noticeable in departing peoples’ testimonies – for sure. One thing in response to this though is that Victor and Paul will curse in the name of Christ but they DO actually let their people go when they want to. That’s theirs for the keeping and they deserve that credit. In fact Victor even TELLS people to go if they are not committed any more, and has always done this – again he needs the credit for this approach too. You see the judgmentalism is not to control for selfish cult-like reasons – it comes from his psychiatric needs and preaching stance. Most do not understand this peoperly, methinks.
But some people just have to break away. Sometimes I think it’s Victor’s little fantasy and sometimes I think it’s for real.
Not sure what you mean by this exactly. Victor comes across as a poor little thing to unbelievers who look at him from the outside. Just a deluded little guy in his own world. He comes across as a powerful anointed spiritual leader to those when under his ‘spell’. He is actually something in between. A man doing what he believes the Lord wants him to do – lead, preach, confront. His delusions are understandable given his personality and they can be seen clearly with Paul’s failings first really, identified in public with my challenge to him over lack of logic and hypocrisy, and now more serious things by Victor himself. I’m ambivalent about the future for PoT really. Whether Victor regroups listens and learns or perpetuates the insanity and hypocrisy is his call but I hope that he takes note of what I say and (as I do with Paul) hope that things can get straightened out.
Another question is so Paul has been walking in the Spirit in “perfection” all this time? According to whomever? Telling people all this time if you’re not upright you’re going to perish. Now all these things have come out with him? So who’s upright? According to Who? Exactly when and what was walking in perfection like, what does that look like?
I’ve touched on this already and in previous posts. Victor is a little like a chameleon on this subject because he changes his words and stance depending on the circumstances. First I share how I read the scriptures. Next I share how I see Victor. Then I’ll touch on and get to Paul.
The bible explains that we are perfected in Christ and that our sins are as white as snow [in Him] and so on. Clearly (aside from Victor’s preaching or claims or that of madmen) none of us are currently perfect. They way I read scripture is that God knows our sins but it is the redeeming work on the cross that Christ applies to rectify our failings before the Father. Jesus’ work was a historical act that occurred at a particular point in time but had eternal significance. Eternity doesn’t mean only from now (or from then) into the future, it means for all of time, outside of time, universally. Thus when we are “in Him” living, believing, loving and in obedience/fellowship with Him we can claim that we are perfected. This means that when we come before the Father, He accepts us (covering over our sins) for He has to do this for us to approach Him. The sanctification process is lifelong and it is just that – a process – one of becoming like Christ. We never get there and never CAN get there because (as I said before) we are born into sin, sin is literally a “state of being”.
Victor agrees with the essence of this but takes it one step further, which has an element of truth to it, but I believe he errs in the degree that he takes it to, and he is hypocritical, elusive and obfuscates it to his advantage. He will say many times that he is a sinner like the rest of us. He genuinely believes this and this is valid. When confronted and challenged he quite rightly fesses up – that’s good. Then when he shares what the Lord has shown him and defends that fiercely, he also has validity, “Thus saith the Lord!” is quite valid because indeed as you point out he does hear and at times live in the spirit of Jesus. So again he’s right to a point. This is the danger though because he then claims that he “is perfect” in what he says and this is the trap and failing. It is the exact same trap that Catholics fall into when they claim that the Pope is infallible when he speaks “ex cathedra”. His claim to leadership is valid. His claim to saying things that are true is valid. His claim of exclusivity (a lien on the truth is how I call it) requires perfection – and there is where he falls down. The difference between Victor and me is that I ALWAYS try to write generously and give qualifications and conditions and ways out of making definitive statements working with generalities so that people can apply truth as they so wish. It’s why I give generous right of reply as well. I do all of that not to weasel out of definitive claims but because I have learned that sometimes I can hear the spirit of Jesus clearly but am still filtering it through my own sinful nature or bias etc. Victor has yet to learn this.
So to Paul. It’s too simplisitic just to say, “Ah . . . serves him right. He’s just an arrogant so-and-so and he deserves exposure!” Way too simplisitc. Sure, Paul on Paul is a little ugly to listen to – so what. We’re all proud too. Sure he’s got caught with his pants down and humbled. Good. Hopefully something good will come of it. I of all people could turn around and ping him and he’d have a hard time defending but think about it like this . . . I already accused him of hypocrisy and showed the world who he was. Do I need the rest of the world to see his sins to know that what I said was right? Not at all. I wrote it because I knew it was the truth. You question why it was claimed that Paul was supposedly Mr Goody Goody Two Shoes and him and Victor were the only ones who spoke the truth in the whole world. But I never thought that for a minute once we started engaging directly. And I showed it to the world pretty much in realtime. So the error is not Paul’s. His error was to believe that the sun shone out of Victor’s behind and to believe that he was “covered” by obedience and commitment to Victor. Then to hide his rebellion and hypocrisy and whatever else. The error was YOURS to get caught up in the hype or self-delusion that these guys had their act together.
Can you see how this then goes all the way back to the leader? Victor is the one responsible here. Paul has failed because he trusted Victor and puffed himself up. Victor has set himself up for this fall BECAUSE he had a good loyal man, not because Paul was a failure. We’re ALL failures to some degree, but it all happened on Victor’s watch. He is and was the one who set the scene, way back when. It was Victor’s failing that when Paul turned to him and started to worship him (after his conversion experience in Israel) that Victor didn’t have the wherewithall – the human relationship skills – the emotional maturity – the [whatever] to lead Paul out into his own walk of faith in the power of the Holy Spirit.
Jack, when we put anything before Christ we make it an idol. I will not let you worship me. No matter how important my blog, or words or support is to you in your recovery it is YOU and your relationship with YOUR Saviour that matter to me. This is the role that John the Baptist took and the same that we must do . . . bring, push, encourage and teach others to go to Him. Victor SAYS this all the time, but doesn’t DO it and in Paul Cohen’s case the soultie that developed became an idol for them both. That was their incredible strength – the tag-team duo that achieved so much, but also the same soultie that grew to an unhealthy co-dependency and is now smashed into a thousand pieces.
There is no perfect life Jack! Not in this mortal world. Jesus alone led that life. Neither Paul Cohen, nor the ‘sweet, spirit-filled’ Sarah Schmidt nor the head poncho Victor himself have anything like a life of perfection – nor me, nor you. This is NOT depressing news, it is fantastic news because it means that we are all the same – we all need the power of the Holy Spirit to build us up and help us to do even the smallest thing for Him! Think of the people learning to speak publicly and the trick that they use to handle the fear of crowds – visualising their audience all in their birthday suits! There’s no difference between you and Victor or me, except in your/his/my minds!
Reading on Victors Auto Bio- is Paul trolling women online all the time trying to convince them to move to Montana.. Is that what “perfection” is?
A rhetorical question I presume! Look, I tell you that when I read that Paul had eyes on Sarah I was sick to the core. Then when Victor vetoed it and then they were an item I knew then that hypocrisy was at play in the whole operation (well I knew that before then but it became even more obvious then). Then when I heard that she had gone back to her folks and her testimony had been removed without notice, explanation, farewell or fanfare I just about puked. I knew what she had done, sacrificed and given to both Victor and then Paul. These are the things that challenge you deeply eh? No. No perfection at all.
I think everyone at TPOT is a lot less perfect than they claim to be. Was Victors wife walking in upright perfection in the Spirit going after a man nearly half her age for decades even to the point saying Victor would die and she would be with Sean??
Let’s go through this a little deeper now that you have raised this subject. I don’t get into too much detail because I try to work at a big-picture level. Sure people all talk to me about the detail and it’s interesting and in some ways important to them, but if we look at the essence of their complaints. It’s not Marilyn’s conduct that grates with them – it’s Victors! Again you come back to the leader. He is the one who has struggled with this, tolerated it and even created it. How the &*%$&^**^&%^& can a man tolerate this for so long? Adultery is what it is called. Simple. Plain. A total disgrace. Look, Victor has a problem, sure, but he has become the problem. Emotional maturity requires him to face it and deal with it. I know how hard it is to do this and it takes real balls to do it – “Honey, it’s him or me. Which is it?” Then that’s it once and for all! I lost the mother of my children because I did exactly that. I determined that I was not going to have sexual morality in my marriage and paid the price to get that. Victor isn’t prepared to pay the price. He now is the problem. Sadly his personal issues preclude a godly response. Now to cover for him here a little – he doesn’t have people he’s accountable to and this is a real biggie for any man, and he’s got insecurities and issues with human relationships so it’s a tall order, but as you allude to this is not the life of perfection that Victor (and Paul) require from others is it?
BUT IT’S OK! THAT’S WHY WE NEED THE LORD! Just be straight up and call it like it is?? We’re all human. You get all the human imperfections in the Theo-Auto Story (one side) and then on the website, forum and correspondences (another side) it all Spiritual Juggernautism
You’re onto it! Remember that it’s the hypocrisy that people hate. It’s always the double standard – one for Victor’s wife and son – another for others. Many will complain as you have said that the website only has one side of things and the others are held back or concealed. I consider this a VERY serious breach of ethical conduct. I have no problem with one-sided messages. I work in this space and getting peoples’ stories out is great BUT Victor claims constantly to honour full disclosure but deliberately and knowingly doesn’t. Not all the time and only when it suits him.
I just have so many questions that I know will go unanswered but it’s ok. The point is to focus on ones life and not get to caught up or make things complicated but if you do that you’re selfish and not wanting to engage or fellowship with the Lord’s people
I’ve spent the time replying Jack so that the answers ARE answered, so keep them coming if you need to. I’ll do what I can to respond.
And if you engage and have concern and ask questions- it’s just worry about yourself and your own life and getting your closet clean. It’s a big cycle. They can tell you whatever they want.
No Jack. They can tell you anything they like but they have no power over you, other than what you give them. I warned you that Paul and Victor were hypocrites, lacked logic, didn’t understand the true nature of money and were overly judgmental and you’ve read all my words, so you know this. But remember that I also told everyone that they were (and still are) Christians with a Christian Ministry. Yes, it is flawed (aside from any theological argument, that is). The cycle can and will stop the instant that the light comes on. I hope that it’s shining brightly now.
If you do something positive or what you’re instructed, ohhh your self righteous and going at it in your righteousness and if you scale back and relax and wait on the Lord, you’re going to perish because you’re not believing, obeying and acting in faith.
Right, now for a little exercise in how your understanding is growing and you are changing, why not read this paragraph again now, and first tell me what you FEEL and then tell me what you THINK? You see, I think that even just a day or so after having written this, and now after having read my reply you will be FEELing better and different. You will probably be THINKing less negatively too? Do you think that your faith has grown now that you have another person who respects you, trusts your judgment and writes to you?
The lesson is not that I am clever to motivate you – the lesson is to see how you can get pulled down by losing proper context. Again, you know the truth. Learn to back yourself and you will get smarter and better at doing this in realtime. Bye bye depression and more!
It just gets way too complex. Victor will even tell you himself, faith just does, it just goes.. It just seems so contradictory and confusing.
No longer Jack. Back yourself. He knows you, loves you and has you in His hands. Trust him – not me or Paul of Victor – Him! If that’s too much for the moment then sure, trust me just for a little while but it’s your faith in Him that really matters.
In my work situation, I was faced with a decision and they told me to ask them. I specifically wrote it out and explained everything and then they acted bothered by it and didn’t even give me any real answer. But people make a decision apart from their counsel then you’re evil and acting on your own.. there’s no getting anywhere.
Nobody is going to live your life for you Jack. If you still need an answer, ask me the question and I’ll try to help but when you are away from fools who won’t answer, you have the best guide in the universe living right inside of you!
I just don’t know what to say or what’s going to happen with me. I’m broken, broken hearted, crushed, hurt, lost, sick so bad. I feel like Armageddon has been waged on my soul.
Maybe so, but not for long methinks
I know you don’t need to hear all this in a long email but I just started writing. I think in a way it might have been good to write this out and read over it to see things..
Well you’ve had a few hours of my time as a result so that’s gotta be good I hope! I can handle it Jack. I can’t promise an ongoing response like this but as long as you can manage it, I’ll be there for you with what I can give. You can dump on me again as you so wish. We’re both big boys!
Please keep this between you and I. Sorry for the length, Wish you well. Thanks, take care.
Jack I have a couple of favours to ask of you. Would you please slip me a little note of reply, to say that you’ve got this email and the other one last night – sometimes things don’t get through. Also, I’d like to put your words and my reply up online sometime in about two weeks from now. Is that OK if I remove any identifying words like your state and name? The reason is that I think that many would appreciate the wisdom that you show as well as the depth of thought and advice that you give. Also with my reply. It’s like it is wasted only going to you when hundreds of others could get benefit over the years if we do get it out there. I’ve got a big series just started so it would only be in 13 days or so. What say you?
Lastly, thanks for sharing. Sure I know you just started typing and it all came out but you did share with me personal stuff – that’s an honour. Sorry I can’t handle the medical things – just not my cuppa tea for some reason!
Wish you well too!
So that was Jacks big dump and my reply! He did confirm receipt (I was concerned for his well-being) and then he came back with another email. My replies interspersed again:
On 2 June 2017 at 11:10, Jack <[redacted]@gmail.com> wrote:
So YES I have received all of your replies and have read through them entirely.
(Including the new postings on your site)
OK great – I was pleased and happy when I saw you respond just now. That’s all good.
I’m gonna have to go over it numerous times. I could sense things and my instincts could pick up on things here and there but I could never analyze or break down things the way you have. (not trying to flatter you) It blows me away..
Yes but understand that this comes from years of hard work. If you knew where I was at, like you were/are then you would be stunned. The stuff of miracles. The way that you get there Jack is not by being smart or working hard but by walking step after step in the Truth and never giving up. You see, life is a journey not a destination and which way you are facing is more important than whether you walk, run, pause, even go backwards a bit or step sideways, if you determine that Jesus is for real therefore you will be, then this grows bit by bit by painful bit into character, and skills and maturity. This allows others to get the benefit of course, but we do grow first.
I actually have to read each paragraph, shake my head, let it sink in for a second and then continue on reading. Lots and lots of stuff there. I thank you for the help.
Do that by all means. It’s a lot but you needed it
Also, your encouraging words mean more than you know and I’m very grateful that you would take the time and effort to do that.
Oh I know alright! I know. It’s just nice that you can say thanks.
Another thing, you have a very balanced analysis and give credit where credit is due which is a big thing.
And for yourself too Jack. You take credit quite a bit yourself, so you do bring that same balance. Remember that sin is a state of being and that false humility is a sin too.
Anyway, there’s much more I can say in regards to your reply, TPOT and things in general but I think shorter emails from here on out would work better- I know you’re busy and must really go through a large volume of info just to complete a single task. I’m not trying to bog you down with any more novels 🙂
OK So my needs are to have questions to answer. When you have a question, it would be nice for me to know that you can slip something to me. If I don’t reply it will be because of spam filters or I’ve missed it. As long as it is genuine, you can’t ask too much of me. I do want to know about PoT for sure – anything as it helps me get it right at the end of the day. If I can read Victor’s tome then I can read yours!
Also, for the record- I’m not blaming TPOT for my short or downfalls. Like I said they were good to me during my time there. Things just happened in a very unfortunate manner with me for I’m sure various reasons. It’s just the way they go about things. That’s why I was saying it’s like a wizard of oz type thing almost. How about we just pull back the curtain and get serious?
I think the best way to say it is.. Thinking they have every answer from the Lord, you take what they instruct and do it expecting certain results, positive results (high expectations) and when those good results don’t happen- it starts off this whole chain reaction of stuff like confusion, what am I doing wrong? Sin? What’s wrong with me? (which are all valid questions to a degree) etc.. and that’s where things get weird. If you read Victors story- one person hears this.. another sees this, another has this vision, another has this dream, another hears this again?? It’s crippling.
Only if you let it be. He’s no different to your or me at the end of the day!
Most of the people who use the frequent TPOT wording “go your way” when hammering others, have gone their way..
True and quite ironic eh?
Like you said it’s ok or would be better for them to say “we don’t know” or go and “search it out on your own” or whatever.. and for me growing up and toughening up and engaging my brain and all the things you were talking about..
Ok that’s it for now.. like I said gonna have to go back and absorb what you wrote, there’s just so much there. You know I appreciate it. And to answer your last question, Yes use whatever you feel is necessary.
OK. I will probably strip out personal stuff and do a post in about 2 weeks. Thanks for that.
Thanks and take care,
And an addendum:
On 3 June 2017 at 13:42, Jack <[redacted]@gmail.com> wrote:
I gotta keep reading through these for reinforcement. ‘
Yes I’d be treasuring the thoughts – both yours and mine – Yours because they are solid and real and as you heal you can look back/think back and see how right you were a) to leave b) to leave the way you did and c) the fact you reached out to me
Mine because I think they are good stuff. A lot went into them – a few decades experience and a few hours or love/work.
Nuff said – let’s move on
There are a couple of thoughts I have at the moment as an addendum – Ron McKenzie and the big ones.
Ron isn’t in tune with the PoT guys but he’s got a lot of respect for me in the way he approaches bible study, faith and living. He’s just retired and is an ex-Pastor and worked as an economist for the last few decades. Quite a humble guy who has a good analytical mind; not frightened to go it outside the mainstream and good with big picture stuff. If you are ‘over’ PoT, and I think you should be, have a read through some of Ron’s books and blogs. www.kingwatch.co.nz and his personal blog is a great historical resource.
I’ve got concerns over his geo-political take because he’s a little older-school and not well researched in the ways of the world (the Deep State etc), but he is good with biblical principles, I think. His recent book Kingdom Authority is a little ripper and his next one coming out I look forward to digesting. Ron is the guy who gave me the phrase that I use all the time that sums up the second most important question in life – understanding the true nature of money – that money is only a record of a half completed transaction. When you are healthy again and want to have another go at something meaty, let me know and I’ll be happy to feed you what I’ve learned.
The biggest question is the identity of Christ. Jesus asked this of His Disciples and it is critical. The second is to understand the true nature of money – the devil tempts us to think of it as a commodity when it’s not – it is a measurement. We think that money is something we have or don’t have. That’s not the temptation that Christ faced. You have said to me in the past that you gave cash to PoT and you wished that you had some of it now for living but check out how Nehemiah got the cedar for his wall. Was it from God’s people of the ones who hated them? Who was the keeper of the forests?
When you understand money, life in Christ takes a totally new meaning. It doesn’t mean that you have to give it all away; or that you have to live like a pauper; or that you can keep your millions and ignore the poor . . . no, money is a measurement. Let me ask you this question. If I told you that I was coming to Nevada next year and I needed something, would you help me? If you could? You see I have loved you and you owe me one – a beer or a hug or a favour or (in the world) they would say with a buck or two or ten. Cash is used as a measurement of debt – an IOU if you will but we think of it as a commodity, something that is in limited supply and that is controlled and issued by banks and governments and that costs something. Real money is not like that as a Christian in Christ because Jesus taught that our needs are always fulfilled when we GIVE to others what He has first given to us. This deception though is the nature of evil, to present it to us like the devil did to Christ, something to HAVE. Jesus though chose to BE something and when we as Christians realise the significance of that, our lives change to 3D from 2D, or go colour when we are living B&W.
This BTW is the last area that the Internet technologies with the globalisation and centralisation of power have yet to disrupt. Mankind will experience this, I don’t know when but Daniel and Revelation make this clear that the business/banking/political system will crash and the people will live in the power of the Holy Spirit. Not many people yet have this understanding, especially in Christendom. The greenies and alternatives with their New Age things are a lot closer than the Christians as far as I can see. The importance for you is that as you rebuild your life post-PoT if you can do it knowing the future better, then you can be where He wants you for maximum influence on society around you when the stresses in society increase.
I dare not predict the future but when you are ready, to tackle it drop me a note.
I just want to clarify in the interests of completeness in case you teach others this same thing, but the question of Christ’s identity is only the first part – the second is what we do about it, for as He said even the Enemy knows who He is! I didn’t discuss that because I knew it wasn’t needed for you, but if you share it with others it is the relationship not the knowledge that matters.
Whew! There were a few hours invested into that exchange.
The first thing I think is obvious is that Jack has been through the hoops – medical issues, financially and definitely emotionally.
Then it is clear that Jack is trying to do the right thing. He knows the score – that he cannot ping others for his own woes, but he also knows that there were real problems at PoT.
At age 36 he’s going backwards and forwards between anger at himself; anger at Path of Truth; pain, guilt, confusion and more. These are all signs of grief. He said it himself in as many words, while he’s pleased to be out and knows that this was the best thing, he still had good times with the PoT people.
Knowing the PoT operations like I do (from a distance) the biggest thing for me is his insecurity, lack of self-esteem and how PoT tapped into this. He referred to others as “losers” describing them as just seeking that acceptance that we all seek. If I break down this entire exchange this is THE biggest learning point for observers – that PoT gives a sense of acceptance to adherents because they side with a man who believes that he is appointed to lead by God. Jack explains this quite well above.
The problems arise however when there is failure to be perfect. It is the age-old dilemma of how much faith do you put in God’s people here on earth and how much do you turn to Him, directly. I say it like this . . . if you claim to have an exclusive lien on the truth, then you better be perfect. Nobody is, least of all Victor Hafichuk (and certainly not Paul Cohen as has been revealed with his departure from PoT).
Victor is unusual in many ways; he struggles with life and has chosen a contrary role. These are his actual words:
My focus has always been my work – to speak, to write, to bear witness to the Lord, and to testify against the world and false religion.
We were reminded again and again to speak clearly, boldly, unequivocally, uncompromisingly, and unapologetically.
Says it all doesn’t it?
Unfortunately when things go wrong as a result of his failings, it takes a big and brave man to speak it out to him for his responses when threatened can come from the pits of hell. Many around him cannot and do not speak it like it is for they seek and need his approval. That’s how he views life and he has PoT structured in such a way that this happens. Jack however, like the very many before him who have come and gone over the years, has managed to break free from this emotional tie that Victor creates to those around him.
Jack deserves a huge award for putting it into words in a way that others can see the results of PoT adherence and then departure. My advice is to tread carefully when engaging with PoT. With Paul Cohen gone or going, things may change in terms of the power of their viciousness or venom but the core issues will remain as long as Victor is the chief. Personally, I think it has probably had its day, but as Jack implies, who knows?
- Analysing Victor Hafichuk’s Ministry - the orginal post of May 2015 in which my call is "Yes, Christian but excessive judgementalism"
- Path of Truth Emails - the evidence
- More from Victor Hafichuk - analysing a third party communication
- “Path of Truth Cult” – Vanity Search - An adherent supports PoT but challenges following a vanity search
- Aquatechnology.net – Victor Hafichuk - A longstanding third party analysis
- Path of Truth – Logical Fallacies - Exposing multiple logical fallacies in an adherent's communications
- Path of Truth IS a cult - Analysis following claims PoT is a cult
- Victor Hafichuk – The Other Side - A Christian Ministry
- Victor Hafichuk “Nobody Is Perfect” - Confusing Perfected in Christ with Perfect
- Analysing A Path of Truth Detractor - Correcting a Disillusioned PoT follower
- Handling the Path of Truth - Leaving the PoT can be hard
- Path of Truth – Ripped Asunder - Victor fires his long-term 2IC
- Paul Cohen After the Path of Truth - Paul's opportunity/challenge
- Maturity in overcoming Path of Truth - An ex-PoT adherent bares all
- Victor Hafichuk – False Claim Analysis - Exposing 'Delusions of Grandeur'