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  1. Amen Dennis. There is much I want to applaud you for in this post. I truly despise, not just Victor, but quite a few “independent Christians” I come across always giving off that false humility as you say, that because they say God doesnt destroy them immediately they are correct. He is a God that I find at times a bit slow, but this shattering of Harvest Haven is only the beginning.

    • Jimmy T has it all sussed when he says:

      ONCE in a saintly passion
      I cried with desperate grief,
      “O Lord, my heart is black with guile,
      Of sinners I am chief.”
      Then stooped my guardian angel
      And whispered from behind,
      “Vanity, my little man,
      You’re nothing of the kind.”

      Thanks for commenting here, Jay.

  2. Dennis you said…..

    “I didn’t know that Victor was an Israelite, one of the conditions of his appointment into this role, if indeed he is “THAT prophet”. I don’t believe that this is the case. Victor must show me that he has a direct lineage back to Israel of old before I could believe him. I seriously doubt that he can”

    “The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your fellow Israelites. You must listen to him.” Deuteronomy 18:15 NIV

    Some versions of the bible might word it differently as in, “brethren” “brothers” But here is a Question…..what is a true Israelite Dennis, does Victor really have to show he has a direct lineage? What about being a true Israelite in faith. Paul aka, Saul of Tarsus might not agree with you. Here is only one example.

    If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise. Galatians 3:29.

    am I picking bones here Dennis, or is it you….or maybe Paul is?

    • Hi Brian and thank you for questioning me here like this. The simple answer is that I don’t actually know. I take a straight read of this scripture identifying THAT prophet as an Israelite, meaning one of the descendants of Israel, and not the wider interpretation that you propose. I note that Paul & Victor identified themselves as Jew & Gentile in times past thus there is a difference. I note that the Times of the Gentiles will end with the return of the chosen people to true faith so there does seem to be a clear distinction. It seems to me that there this view is a decidedly convenient validation for Victor’s claim. Even accepting that Moses wrote Deuteronomy to mean ‘all true believers post Christ which could potentially include Victor, a Gentile’ the thrust of the post remains – Victor’s claim fails on integrity, logic and more . . . except for Victor’s view of things of course. I’ve answered a theological question here, Brian but it’s not my wish to present a blog of dueling bibles! Thank you for asking all the same.

      • Thank you LM. This may carry some significance if the writer originally understood this to be the case too. Considering that this was spoken before the time of Christ, I find this problematic and a convenient ‘easy out’. But as I always say, I try not to debate theology. Greater minds than mine can argue that toss.

  3. Hey Dennis, I remember from an old email in which I corresponded with Paul regarding an article Victor posted about the Deuteronomy 18 prophet.

    Here is the link to the article:
    http://www.thepathoftruth.com/falsehood-exposed/big-lie-exposed.htm

    What I wanted to quote was the last parts of Victor’s article, perhaps to give more of a fuller scope of this dilemma:

    Finally, we have God saying to the man Moses:

    “I will raise them up a prophet from among their brothers, one like you, and will put My words in his mouth. And he shall speak to them all that I shall command him. And it shall happen, whatever man will not listen to My Words which he shall speak in My Name, I will require it of him. But the prophet who shall presume to speak a word in My Name which I have not commanded him to speak or who shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die” (Deuteronomy 18:18-20 MKJV).

    Then we have Moses (a man sent of God in God’s stead) saying, “The LORD your God will raise up to you a prophet from the midst of you, of your brothers, one like me. To him you shall listen” (Deuteronomy 18:15 MKJV).

    Yes, as Peter declared in Acts 3:26, this prophecy of one to come after Moses is fulfilled in Jesus Christ, in all those who are sent by Him to speak to others that which He requires and inspires by His Spirit to speak.”

    So I suppose that means you and me are Moses prophets too, eh, Dennis?

    Specifically, I asked Paul more about this: “I understand how you and Victor fit the Deuteronomy 18 Prophet description. I was wondering if that means there are other Moses prophets.”

    And to which Paul basically replied, “For example, your question below is one I’d say isn’t of great importance regarding the walk of faith. What is of importance is that you pay heed to what the Lord is saying through whomever and whenever the truth comes your way. And if you receive us as His servants, then you need to recognize you’re dealing with Him and carefully consider your response to what you’re hearing.”

    This email was back in February 4th, 2017, so perhaps Victor’s new video, 10 months later, may have a bit of change from that time, but if not, should give some more context.

    • Hi Jay
      A few things arising from your comments:
      1. You are thorough and clearly seek the truth in this matter.
      2. I do not consider myself a theologian and do not want to especially cross swords with Victor, you or Paul in this area/subject.
      3. A changing position (like you refer to with Victor’s take [Paul at the time was a proxy for Victor]) indicates hypocrisy and/or confusion. Victor speaks a lot of truth in his article but the kicker is plain to see “You reject MY leadership/interpretation of what God is saying!” Thus Victor is hoist by his own petard when found out to be a hypocrite (the number one complaint from those who have left PoT) accusing others of the very pride that ensnares him.
      4. With Christ as the central point of reference for all Christians and the same Holy Spirit working in all our lives we must come closer to each other during the natural sanctification process. In that sense I see us all having greater likeness to the prophets and men of God of old like Moses. I see this as a progressive thing as we all grow and mature in time and also a divine thing in that some of us are called for certain tasks “such a time as this” and others not so much for the moment. I’m not happy to be called one of “Moses prophets” like you have suggested; likewise Victor or yourself. Christ-ian as the early believers were called is sufficient, and if you want to put a more detailed label: “Working in the prophetic realm” (speaking it like it is) if you really must.
      Thanks for commenting here again.

      • I did read the article “working in the prophetic” and agree. It might have slipped my mind by accident as I wrote the comment but it is mostly point 3 that was what I was a bit irritated with victor’s hypocrisy.

        My comment had a bit of careless sarcasm. I think though at this point I am confident in an answer and didn’t mean to sound like I was asking you.

  4. I was reading an online article from a site (lebtahor.com) and found this description of the author criticizing these “independent movements”:

    “I will assemble my own band of loyal followers [cheering section] by creating strife and division, throw around some “mystical” or kabbalistic terms, and then refer to all others who are not as “knowing” with derogatory names such as “kirche” or “xtians” while justifying my actions as “tough love”. I will, of course, choose a “special” name for The Almighty and the Messiah that only my group of followers will use. If anyone tries to question why it is not translatable from the original Hebrew, I will just point to my “credentials”, or perhaps claim that “ha satan” is attempting to persecute me because I am the “chosen” messenger. ”

    Reminds me when Victor and Martin failed to debate you in the Holocaust emails.

    Continuing from the site:
    “For my finale, maybe I can imply that I am the one written about who is “like Moses”, and that all the people who have been enlightened by my “deep teaching” should follow me as their leader into a “greater exodus”. I will “teach” them, through utilizing my “sod” kabbalistic interpretation of the scriptures, and of course through “direct revelation”, that they should sell all of their belongings, and then generously support my “ministry”. It will be most important that they do this while waiting patiently for me to get my “direct revelation”, even though I am a proven false prophet, signaling that it is the correct time for me to lead all of the “true believers” out of the United States [or “babylon” if you prefer] into the “promised land” which will be somewhere in the middle east. I will through my “teachings” reinforce the importance of us being there as predicted in Biblical prophecy, so that we the “remnant”, “the elect”, and the ones who are “great in the kingdom of heaven”, can usher in the Messiah and fulfill the end time prophecy.”

    Not that everything Victor said was false, but I see that he isn’t the only “unique” one zealous and stumbling at this point. I am not trying to be critical on him, but at the same time I am getting a bit fed up with those of his type. I say “his type” because since leaving POT I stumbled in two more groups, GOCC and most recently James Trimm. The former is the typical overzealous independent “christians” i have seen too many times online, the latter taught me a lot on his website but I found he did a bunch of sins he never openly repented from. At least Victor has done repentance before…

    I guess this would make that my third and fourth blocks to put in my belt. I feel too many bricks though may make my belt sag.

    (I am not entirely sure if this comment is too big to place on here or if this will provide anything more to the discussion. If not feel free to remove it.)

    • Hi Jay

      > Reminds me when Victor and Martin failed to debate you in the Holocaust emails.

      Anyone can speak some truth. Victor and Paul do that. Integrity as a genuine truthseeker however is hard – damned hard actually – and requires a huge dollop of humility. You see the hypocrisy of PoT revealed as you say in failure to push through with their discussion and defensiveness via aggression when challenged. This hypocrisy is why all PoT adherents have left and Victor has a revolving door of staff and adherents. I believe the root of this is cognitive dissonance in Victor. He genuinely believes what he says – in particular about himself, yet this is unpalatable to many who learn the truth about his skeletons. The real problem though is not Victor. He’s the root cause of course – the root of the problem is that those who criticise, calling his operation a cult etc exacerbate the problem and give him good reason to perpetuate his own aggression.

      > [More like Victor]

      Jay you have referred to notches in your belt, basing this I presume on my advice to move on from your painful experience with PoT and take it as learning on your journey. What it appears that you are doing is repeating the same mistake in how you got into a pickle with PoT in the first place. There is no complete truth outside of Christ. It doesn’t matter whether you are looking for a perfect wife, or a perfect job, or a perfect church or truth itself; this world is not a place where you can find perfection. My advice is to recognise this ASAP because the pain will continue for you until you do. Yes, Jesus is the Truth; Yes the Holy Spirit is perfect and does work in all of our lives as we humble ourselves, listen and obey, but contrary to what Victor and PoT teach while we can connect with Him, do godly things; teach godly truths, we are all fallible. Far, far better for you to seek truth through Him, than others like the ones that you mention.

      It took ten individual nudges, circumstances and events before I recognised the Holy Spirit calling me out of the denominational/organised church. It took nine separations from my ex-wife before I put my foot down and demanded that which I deserved. It took Eli three awakenings before he realised that Samuel was getting prompted by the living God. It’s going to take you three or four times to realise that you have a good brain and genuine faith and that He can and does relate with you personally in a way that you can grow in faith in the direction He wants. I hope for your sake it isn’t going to be five!

      Blessings!

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